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Hey everyone! I am new to this tribe. I joined mostly because I wanted to bounce a theory of mine off of you all here. It may actually concern many of you here, so you may all find this of particular interest. I will try to make this interesting and try to keep it as brief as possible. Please understand that I am completely serious here, so kindly bear with me. :-D
I recently discovered from my mother, who is very, how shall I say, attuned to such otherworldly things, that the Scottish clan Donnachaidh from which I am descended hails from an ancient king of Scotland named Kenneth I (circa 843-858). The Donnachaidh clan caught my interest primarily because they boast of Pictish blood. For those of you unfamiliar with the Picts of Scotland:
"From the writings of the classical authors who mention Britain, we know that by the fourth century AD the predominant people in northern Scotland were referred to as "Picts".
"Throughout history, the Picts have always been shadowy, enigmatic figures. From the outset they were regarded as savage warriors and by the time the Norsemen were compiling their sagas and histories, the memory of the Picts had degenerated into a semi-mythical race of fairies." From: www.orkneyjar.com/history/p...index.html
The Picts were a people shrouded in mystery. They were very small in stature, standing only between three-and-a-half and four feet tall, and spoke a language unknown to invaders. They painted themselves blue with woad before going into battle and were fierce warriors. It is believed that the Picts of Northern Scotland vanished into obscurity and became the fairy folk of Scotland. In fact, it was Kenneth's Pictish blood (his mother was a Pict) that earned him the throne upon the death of his father. "The Scots also had a claimant to the throne, for when Alpin Mac Eochaid died, his son Ciniod aka Kenneth Mac Alpin (Kenneth I), became King of Scots and rightfully laid claim to the throne of Caledonia [Scotland] through the bloodlines of his mother or his wife. It is here that the story comes down of 'MacAlpins Treason', - the story of the end of the Pictish line of Caledonia." From: www.tartans.com/articles/p...ecline.html
While bearing Pictish blood, Kenneth I descended from Erc who was the progenitor of the royal line of the Kingdom of Dalriada. The clans of Dalriada invaded what would become Scotland during the time of the Roman occupation of Britain. During this time, the Picts were assimilated into the Dalriada Irish and the Pictish blood was intermingled with the blood of Dalriada, which is what led to Kenneth's kingship. Erc was a distant descendant of Milesius, the ancestor of the great Milesian Dynasty that ruled Ireland for over a thousand years before the Anglo-Norman conquest of Ireland in the twelfth century. Among the various dubious theories about the Milesians, the following theory has prevailed:
"... [A]nother theory conjectures that Mile was a "gaelicized" Jewish prince, that is, a descendant of the old royal house of the Irish tribe "Fir-De", that is, "Tuathe-De", who were "gaelicized" descendants of Jewish refugees. If this is true, then, Mil[e] descended from Dua[ch], the last king of the Irish "Fir-De", who was killed about 250BC fighting invading Gaels, who conquered the isle." From: www.angelfire.com/ego/et_de...gs.wps.htm
As many of you likely know, the "Fir-De" or "Tuathe-De" mentioned above are the Tuatha de Denaan, who were driven into the hills by later invaders and became the Sidhe, the fairy folk of Ireland.
So, without sounding completely mad, I submit for the approval of all here the following hypothesis. It stands to reason, granting for the sake of argument the validity of the above information, that if I am a descendant of clan Donnachaidh, descended from Kenneth I, descended from Erc, descended from Milesius, that I am technically a descendant of the Tuatha de Denaan. In addition, it stands to reason that I also share heredity with the Picts, who bacame the fairies of Scotland, making me a descendant of the Scottish fairy courts as well. Is this just abject and contemptable silliness, or does it make some sort of strange sense? I would be interested in anything anyone here has to say. Thanks! -- Ry
I recently discovered from my mother, who is very, how shall I say, attuned to such otherworldly things, that the Scottish clan Donnachaidh from which I am descended hails from an ancient king of Scotland named Kenneth I (circa 843-858). The Donnachaidh clan caught my interest primarily because they boast of Pictish blood. For those of you unfamiliar with the Picts of Scotland:
"From the writings of the classical authors who mention Britain, we know that by the fourth century AD the predominant people in northern Scotland were referred to as "Picts".
"Throughout history, the Picts have always been shadowy, enigmatic figures. From the outset they were regarded as savage warriors and by the time the Norsemen were compiling their sagas and histories, the memory of the Picts had degenerated into a semi-mythical race of fairies." From: www.orkneyjar.com/history/p...index.html
The Picts were a people shrouded in mystery. They were very small in stature, standing only between three-and-a-half and four feet tall, and spoke a language unknown to invaders. They painted themselves blue with woad before going into battle and were fierce warriors. It is believed that the Picts of Northern Scotland vanished into obscurity and became the fairy folk of Scotland. In fact, it was Kenneth's Pictish blood (his mother was a Pict) that earned him the throne upon the death of his father. "The Scots also had a claimant to the throne, for when Alpin Mac Eochaid died, his son Ciniod aka Kenneth Mac Alpin (Kenneth I), became King of Scots and rightfully laid claim to the throne of Caledonia [Scotland] through the bloodlines of his mother or his wife. It is here that the story comes down of 'MacAlpins Treason', - the story of the end of the Pictish line of Caledonia." From: www.tartans.com/articles/p...ecline.html
While bearing Pictish blood, Kenneth I descended from Erc who was the progenitor of the royal line of the Kingdom of Dalriada. The clans of Dalriada invaded what would become Scotland during the time of the Roman occupation of Britain. During this time, the Picts were assimilated into the Dalriada Irish and the Pictish blood was intermingled with the blood of Dalriada, which is what led to Kenneth's kingship. Erc was a distant descendant of Milesius, the ancestor of the great Milesian Dynasty that ruled Ireland for over a thousand years before the Anglo-Norman conquest of Ireland in the twelfth century. Among the various dubious theories about the Milesians, the following theory has prevailed:
"... [A]nother theory conjectures that Mile was a "gaelicized" Jewish prince, that is, a descendant of the old royal house of the Irish tribe "Fir-De", that is, "Tuathe-De", who were "gaelicized" descendants of Jewish refugees. If this is true, then, Mil[e] descended from Dua[ch], the last king of the Irish "Fir-De", who was killed about 250BC fighting invading Gaels, who conquered the isle." From: www.angelfire.com/ego/et_de...gs.wps.htm
As many of you likely know, the "Fir-De" or "Tuathe-De" mentioned above are the Tuatha de Denaan, who were driven into the hills by later invaders and became the Sidhe, the fairy folk of Ireland.
So, without sounding completely mad, I submit for the approval of all here the following hypothesis. It stands to reason, granting for the sake of argument the validity of the above information, that if I am a descendant of clan Donnachaidh, descended from Kenneth I, descended from Erc, descended from Milesius, that I am technically a descendant of the Tuatha de Denaan. In addition, it stands to reason that I also share heredity with the Picts, who bacame the fairies of Scotland, making me a descendant of the Scottish fairy courts as well. Is this just abject and contemptable silliness, or does it make some sort of strange sense? I would be interested in anything anyone here has to say. Thanks! -- Ry
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Tue, September 7, 2004 - 9:02 PMWell, I guess I'm all alone on this one. But, it's a small matter. I suppose as an addendum to the above, for the sake of my own interest, I will include the follow article about Pixies, which are believed to be the remnants of pre-Celtic Pictish inhabitants of northern Scotland, the small aboriginal folk who inhabited the barrows and cromlechs of the northlands of Britain. I intended on on writing something that included much of the information below, most of which comes directly from Evans-Wentz book "Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries". However, the following article serves my purposes sufficiently. Though I suppose researching this kind of ancestry won't get me free college tuition, I find the prospect of being blood-related to the people of legend that are said to have become the Pixies of the British Isles very ... comforting in a way. :-D
Most people see pixies as happy, smiling folk who spend their days sitting on toadstools, watching the world go by. In fact, if you were to ask for a description of a typical pixy, this is the answer most will give. Adding of course that they are about six inches high, dance in "Pixy Rings" and work for a bowl of milk, but will leave when offered clothes.
All of that is true up to a point. However, there is much more to the pixy than you may think
What is a pixy?
Maybe I should begin by saying what a pixy is not. Despite the insistence of Hollywood to the contrary, pixies are not tiny gossamer-winged faeries that flit around the woodlands and flower beds in the style of Tinkerbell. That particular type of fae is not a pixy, but a Pillywiggin or Flower faery. As well as appearing in Disney's "Peter Pan", they have most recently been seen in the movie "Fairytale", which purports to explain the story of the "Cottingley Fairies". However, Pillywiggins are not the reason for this essay, being mentioned here merely in order to explain that despite current trends, they are not the same as pixies.
The word "Pixie" is often used incorrectly as a generic term for all British and American faery folk, with books, movies and even computer games compounding the error - just enter the words "Pixy" or "Pixie" in an internet search engine and see what you get. Actually, the name should be spelt "Pixy", with the plural being "Pixies", although it has now become commonplace to spell it either way. In Cornwall, the word Pisky is used, which is a corruption of "Pixy". In the rest of the West Country of England, as in most of the English-speaking world, the word Pixy is used, although they are sometimes called Grigs or Dusters in East Anglia. Pixies are sometimes also known as Pisgies, Pechts, Pechs, and Pickers.
The usual description of a Pixy is similar to that seen on Cornish charms, where a little humanoid figure is depicted sitting on a toadstool, with his hands wrapped around his knees. He is usually dressed in green, although some pixies wear rags or in some instances, nothing at all. The pixy is usually envisaged as being small, although some are known to possess certain shapeshifting abilities resulting in a height range of between eighteen inches to the size of a fully-grown human adult. They are also believed to take the form of hedgehogs, in which shape they are known as Urchins.
The original pixies were the little aboriginal folk who inhabited the barrows and cromlechs, and whose cunning - their only effective weapon against the strength of the Aryan invader - earned them a reputation for magical powers. Over the years these peoples also became linked with the pagan belief in nature sprites, and the two beliefs merged, giving us the pixy we know today. Remains of ancient dwellings, half sunken in the ground give us an idea as to why the pixies were believed to live in the underworld, when you consider that when fully built, they resembled a small hill. When seeing a pixy entering and leaving from the smoke hole in the roof, it is understandable how a passing traveller could mistake them as beings from the underworld. In fact the word "Pixy" is believed to derive from "Pict" - early inhabitants of Scotland who lived in similar dwellings.
Legends say that during the Roman conquest of Britain, the Fatae, Italian faeries, accompanied the Romans and at first lived in relative peace with the pixies. However as the Romans expanded their control of the country, the pixies became concerned and war broke out. Eventually the pixies drove the Fatae out of the West Country (Cornwall, Devon and Somerset) and everything west of the river Parret became Pixyland. I believe that part of this legend is a retelling of the Roman invasion itself, with the Romans unable to progress through Scotland due to the attacks of the Picts. Eventually the invaders were forced to build artificial borders in the forms of the Hadrian and Antonine walls and the area they were unable to conquer received the name "Pictland". Of course, given that the West Country of England is as far away from the Highlands of Scotland as you can get, it is also possible that a similar defensive posture was made by the denizens of that area.
The character of Peter Pan, companion of the aforementioned Tinkerbell, is a pixy, as is Puck of Pook's Hill, and in fact Kipling's Puck is described as "a small, brown, broad-shouldered, pointy-eared person with a snub nose, slanting blue eyes, and a grin that ran right across his freckled face". This certainly sounds like a pixy to me. He also speaks of himself as "the oldest Old Thing in England", and explains his uniqueness in that he is not affected by "Salt, or Horse-shoes over a door, or Mountain-ash berries, or Running Water, or Cold Iron, or the sound of Church Bells". All of which are supposed to dissuade pixies from their mischievous antics, although I know of many who enjoy the sound of bells and swimming in the river.
No discussion on the pixy would be complete without mention of their mischievous activities. They regularly make nocturnal visits to fields where horses are kept and race the animals around until dawn. These Pixy Ridden horses are discovered the next day, to be tired and drawn as if they have been racing around all night. Which of course they have. And at night the pixies revel in causing people to become Pixy-led, in which, taken unaware by mist which makes even familiar objects distorted and unrecognisable, people lose all sense of direction and wander around in circles.
Of course the pixies can be helpful as well as mischievous, and many a farmer has woken in the morning to discover work he planned for the next day has been done by the pixies in gratitude for food and milk left for them earlier in the evening. However, if a pixy is rewarded by a gift of clothes, he is likely to happily skip away wearing his new suit, and never be seen again. In fact the inclusion of "Dobby the House Elf" in the Harry Potter series of novels, is based on this very legend.
There are many stories of the pixies, some of which have been collected in anthologies such as Enys Tregarthen's "Piskey Folk" and Henry Jenner's "Piskies : a Folk-lore Study". Many have been transcribed and uploaded onto the internet, and I include some here.
In these pages, you will meet the true pixies, not the sanitised and sickly-sweet little elves of Hollywood. You will discover their origins, see the places where they are reputed to live and read the folk stories passed down through the years.
You will learn of the pixy who worked each night to help a hardworking farmer, and the pixies who so loved an old woman that each day they would appear in her room to dance and sing and keep her amused. You will hear what happens to those who betray the trust of the pixies, and those who contrive to steal from them. And woe betide those who cause pain to anyone beloved of the pixies, for they will certainly regret their hurtful actions once the pixies set out to teach their lessons.
www.angelfire.com/folk/pixy...ntro2.html -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Tue, September 7, 2004 - 9:26 PMAnd, just for "fun" (again, ONLY for myself here), here is the lineage I compiled of Duncan de Atholia, the name-founder of Clan Donnachaidh, traced back to Mil (Milesius), allegedly one of the first Celtic invaders of Ireland and founder of the Celtic race in the British Isles. All bearing the surname Duncan or Robertson can claim descendancy from Duncan de Atholia and hail not only from ancient Celtic and Pictish blood, but also from the pre-Celtic people that would become known to the Celtic inhabitants of Scotland as the mysterious Wee People. I compiled this from "A Guide to Irish Roots" by William and Mary Durning and "The Royal Clans of Scotland" by Seumas MacThomas.
Lineage of Clann Donnachaidh
Mil, allegedly the first Celt in Ireland, married Scota, daughter of an Egyptian pharoah, and begat five children: Heber Fionn, Amergin, Ir, Copla, and Heremon.
Heremon, son of Mil and Scota, married Odhbha and begat five children: Luighne, Irialfaidh the Prophet, Dalap, Muimhe, and Laighne. Irialfaidh the Prophet begat Ethriall, begat Follach, begat Tighearnmhas, begat Ganbrotha (Iombotha), begat Smiorghall (Fiachaidh Labhrainne), begat Aonghus Olmucaidh (Angus the Big-headed).
Aonghus Olmucaidh (Angus the Big-headed), son of Smiorghall (Fiachaidh Labhrainne), begat Maon, begat Rothachtaigh, begat Deman (Dian), begat Siorna Saoghlach the Long-lived One, begat Oilill Olchaoin, begat Gallchadh, begat Nuadha Fionn Fail the Fortunate One, begat Aodhan Glas, begat Simeon Breac, begat Muireadhach Bolgrach Treach, begat Fioachaidh Tolgrach, begat Duach Laidhgrach, begat Eochaidh Buaidhaig (Buadach, the Ruler of Aileach), begat Ughaine Mor the Great King, begat Cobthach Caol Bhreagh, begat Meilge, begat Iarn Gleofhatach, begat Connla Guaidhchealgach, begat Olill Casfiacalach, begat Eochaidh Altleathan the Long-hair, begat Aonghus Tuireach Tamach, begat Fiacha Fearmara, begat Oilill Euronn, begat Feargus, begat Forda, begat Maine Mor, begat Airioil, begat Rothrein, begat Trein, begat Roifin, begat Suin, begat Deagha, begat Iar, begat Oilill Lactighe (Anglonnach), begat Eoghan (Cormac), begat Etherscel, begat Conaire Mor, begat Caibre Fionn Mor.
Caibre Fionn Mor, son of Conaire Mor, begat Daire Dorn Mor, who bore the son Caibre Cromcinn, who begat Lughneach Ailathach, who begat a son Modhlamb. Lughaid, also a scond- or third-generation descendant of Caibre Fionn Mor begat a daughter Eithne. Modhlamb, great-great-grandson of Caibre Fionn Mor married his cousion Eithne, who together bore a son Conaire II.
Conaire II the Comely (170 AD), son of Modhlamb and Eithne, married Sarah (Sarait), daughter of Conn Ceadchadhach (Conn of the Hundred Battles) and begat four children: Caibre Riada (Eochu Long-arm), Musgoin, Caibre Baiscinn and Ciabre Musc. Upon his death, King Conaire II gifted to his son Caibre Riada the kingdom of Dal, which came to be known as Dal Riada. Caibre Riada begat Fintain (Cintae), begat Guire, begat Cingai, begat Feidlim (Fedelmid Long-hand), begat Echach Tort (Fiachu the Honoured), begat Fergus Uallach the Proud, begat Aeneas Feart (Angus), begat Eachach Muinremair (Eochaid Thick-neck), begat Erc (503 AD).
Erc, son of Eachach Muinremair (Eochaid Thick-neck), fathered three sons: Fergus, Angus, and Loarn. Fergus begat Doman Guirt, begat Gabrain (Gabran), begat Aedain (Aed), begat Eochach Buide (Eochaid I), begat Domnaill Eric the Speckled, begat Doman Guirt (Domongart), begat Eachach (Eochaid II). (It is also recorded that Domnaill Eric the Speckled begat a son named Eachach who then begat Doman Guirt (Domongart), making Domnaill Eric the Speckled Doman Guirt (Domongart)'s grandfather rather than father. In addition, it is also recorded that Doman Guirt (Domongart) begat Hugh the Fair who then begat Eachach, making Doman Guirt (Domongart) Eachach's grandfather rather than father. However, this is problemmatic with regard to the formal title of Eachach son of Doman Guirt (Domongart), as he is known as Eochaid II rather than Eochaid III.)
Eachach (Eochaid II the Venomous), son of Doman Guirt (Domongart), married Ugaria (Urguissa), the daughter of the Pictish King Ungus (Fergus) (800 AD) and begat one son Aed. Aed begat Eochaid, begat Alpin (840 AD), begat Cenaidh (Kenneth I), begat Constantine, begat Domhnall II, begat Malcolm I, begat Kenneth II, begat Malcolm II, begat Bethoc.
Bethoc, daughter of Malcolm II, married Crinan and begat Duncan I who begat three sons: Malcolm III, Domnall III (Donald Bane, Donald the Fair), and Maelmaire. Maelmaire begat Madadh, begat, Malcolm, begat Henry, begat Conan, begat Ewen, begat Andrew de Atholia, begat Duncan de Atholia, name-founder of Clan Donnachaidh.
Alpin inherited claim to both the throne of Scotland and Pictland. Though he ruled Argyll for a short time, he was beheaded by a Pictish king in 841 AD. However, his son, Kenneth I, was the first to finally unite both kingdoms of Scotland and Pictland during his reign from 843 AD to 858 AD because of his dual Scottish and Pictish ancestry. (It was due to the fact that the Pictish lineage was determined matrilinearly that Alpin and Kenneth I were recognized as heirs to the throne of Pictland.) In the years to follow, the Picts gradually vanished into obscurity, mysteriously leaving none of their customs, traditions, language or art to the new Celtic inhabitants of Scotland. -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Fri, September 10, 2004 - 11:34 PMRyan...WOW! I was blown away reading what you posted. I was married to a Clann Donnachaidh descendant (Robertson). My two children are Robertsons and I cannot wait to add what you have written regarding the genealogical data and theories. Would you mind if I copied your "article" here into a Word document so I can send them off to the kids to read? Thanks for sharing such wonderful things.
Becca -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Sat, September 11, 2004 - 6:13 AMHey Becca! I am pleased beyond words that someone else has found this of interest! Like I said, I did the bit of research here because of my ancestry, but there are SO many people that share this ancestry as well. I would be delighted for you to share it with whomever you wish.
As it stands now, I am still trying to corroborate that Milesius (Mil) was a descendant of King Duach of the Tuatha De. All the major sources cite that he was a Spanish Gael that came to Ireland as the first Celt. However, I am not considering this gospel merely because it's been repeated several times. I actual spent some time years ago proving that the Morrisons, who claim rather dubiously (and repetitively) to be of viking descent sharing ancestry with Clan MacLeod, were actually a cadet branch of the Clan Donald. (They actually claim this based on a misreading of ONE NAME in old MacLeod genealogy records!) And though being of Clan Donald stock does make us of Norse descent, hailing from Somerled, Lord of the Isles, (in fact, we held an office with Clan Donald that was very Norweigian, though it was very Gaelicized) we are also just as much Dalriada Scot as well. Anyway, my point with that tangent is that there is still some hope on corroborating Mil's Tuatha De descent, and thus mine as well!
Anyway, best of luck! Though I do not claim to be any sort of expert concerning Donnachaidh ancestry, if you have any questions about the above, please ask. Thanks for being interested!!! -- Ry
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Unsu...
Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Mon, July 4, 2005 - 12:28 AMRavana,
You are actually not far off the mark with this theory. I am in contact with a faery psychic who is a direct descendant of the fae. She has a very deep psychic ability and her daughter even more so. Anna is no higher than 4ft 4"tall herself.
The faeries were originally called feyerees hence the name derivitive over time. They were from celts in the Scottish Highlands, Ireland and Sweden. Mostly they were sages and warlocks and brilliant at alchemy...so much so that enemies used to capture the fey folk and keep them in cages to force them to do their alchemy and defeat their enemies. The vikings did this the most to them.
Over time the fey folk learnt to hide in caverns underground and created underground cavern like homes so that the marauders couldn't find them. Due to the change in environment and lack of space vertical wise, their genetics changed over time and many never grew higher than 4'5" tall at the most.
People who saw they called them the "wee small folk" and hence the mythology started of the wee folk. Compared to 6' tall plus vikings, they certainly were small.
Over time during my family history I found evidence that change of environment can change your DNA so this backs this info up.
As to the magical world of goblins, faeries, trolls, imps etc go....I believe they derive from a whole different lineage and are called fae folk because of this information mentioned above being corrupted over time in legends.
Lets face it, there are some weird looking animals out there so why not magical creatures. I have had experiences with imps and faeries and many others I know have too.
I have based my entire business on them. -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Tue, September 20, 2005 - 6:21 AMAh, I see someone else has done some research on this.
Here's mine:
indigocrystals.proboards37.com/index.cgi
and
indigocrystals.proboards37.com/index.cgi
Basically it's this:
"My Grandfather was of the Mackenzie clan. His middle name was Muir and he had Muir in his ancestry. The Muirs origin was with Fergus Mor of Ireland who fought against the Picts and later mingled. with the Picts.
The Picts, as I have shown in Between Sky & Earth are descended from the Fae and/or Star Elves."
Different clans, but still trace back to the Fae, Elves, gods....whatever you wish to call them, but all points to the Tuatha de Dannan.
I shall have to read these posts more since you all put a lot here! :)
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Sat, September 11, 2004 - 7:01 AMHere is the section from the Book of Leinster 1150 AD about the coming of the Celts to Ireland via the sons of Mil.
Stories, Myths and Legends
The Story of the Tuatha De Danann from the Book of Leinster 1150 A.D.
www.shee-eire.com/Magic&Myt.../Page1.htm
63. Delbaeth after The Dagda, ten years in the kingship of Ireland, till he
fell, with his son Ollom, at the hands of Caicher s. Nama, frater of
Nechtan. Fiacha s. Delbaeth took the kingship of Ireland after his
father, another ten years, till he fell, along with Ai s. Ollom, at the hands
of Eogan Inbir. Twenty-nine years had the grandsons of The Dagda in
the kingship of Ireland, to wit Mac Cuill, Mac Cecht, and Mac Gréine:
they divided Ireland into three parts. To them came the Gaedil to
Ireland, so that they fell by the hands of three sons of Mil, avenging
Ith, Cuailnge, and Fust, of the three sons of Breogan.
Here also is an article about the Book of Leinster detailing the taking of Ireland by the heirs of Mil. What is most interesting are the notes at the end.
The Book of the Taking of Ireland
Book of Leinster 1150 A.D.
members.aol.com/lochlan2/legends.htm
According to the traditions of the Lebor Gabala Erren (Book of the Taking of Ireland), the Irish originated in Scythia and were descendants of a King Feinius Farsaid, a King of Scythia. This Feinius Farsaid and his son, Nel, went into Asia to work on the Tower of Nimrod (Tower of Babel in biblical history) and were present at the subsequent dispersal of the races after the destruction of the tower. Feinius and his son, both learned in the new languages which resulted from the dispersal, returned to Scythia where Feinius opened a great school of languages on the Scythian plain.
In time his son Nel became such an expert in languages that pharoa of Egypt invited him into his country to teach his people the new languages of the world. So Nel went to Egypt and there he married Scota, pharoa's daughter. After pharoa was drowned in the Red Sea in pursuit of Moses and his band of Hebrews, Nel's great-grandson, Sru, fled from Egypt for fear of persecution by the Egyptians and with his son, Heber Scot, returned to Scythia. There Heber Scot won the kingship of Scythia. After a few generations, a descendant of Heber Scot, named Agnomain, killed a rival for the kingship of Scythia (a kingsman) and in revenge was driven from the country.
With a small band of followers, Agnomain obtained ships and sailed to the Macotic Marshes on the Black Sea, where the Scots (as they had come to be known, from Scota, the wife of Nel) remained for nearly three hundred years. On this journey they received a prophecy from Caicher, their druid, that their descendants would one day reach Ireland. Finally a descendant named Brath led the Scots from the marshes. Again they took to ships and after a long, arduous sea voyage across the Mediterranean Sea, eventually landed on the coast of Spain. On a high mountain on the coast Brath's son, Breogain, built a city named Brigantia famed for its tall tower.
Some years later, Ith, the uncle of King Milesius, saw Ireland from the top of the tower on a cold winter's night.
Ith collected a small fleet and sailed to the island he had glimpsed from the tower in Brigantia. Landing in the north of the island, he immediately encountered the chieftains of the Tuatha de Danann, who were in control of Ireland at the time, having conquered the Fir Bolg, its previous rulers. A battle was fought between them and Ith was slain on the plain of Ith (Magh Ith). His men carried his body back to their ships and the fleet returned to Ireland.
King Milesius was outraged at the death of his uncle and sent his sons, nine in number, to Ireland with a great fleet to avenge his death. On landing in Ireland the sons of King Milesius went inland and there met the kings of the Tuatha de Danann, demananding of them either kingship or battle. The kings of the Tuatha de Danann stalled for time, asking for a week alone on the island before making a decision. To this the sons of King Milesius agreed. They then returned to their ships and sailed a short distance off the coast of Ireland. The treacherous Tuatha de Danann then raised a great druidical storm against the Milesian fleet, which drove them far to the west. They circled the island three times until the storm blew itself out, finally landing in the south of the island. Here they divided their fleet and men, Heber, the oldest son still living (most of the sons of Milesius had been killed in the landing or the storm), remained in the south of Ireland. Heremon, his brother, and the rest of the fleet sailed to the north, where they landed their ships. Coming inland the sons of King Milesius again joined their forces and engaged the Tuatha de Danann in battle, completely routing them and slaying all their leaders.
All of the sons of King Milesius were slain in the conquest of Ireland except for Heber and Heremon. Heber Finn, the son of Ir, survived, as did Lugaidh, the son of Ith. From the three sons of King Milesius to have issue, namely Heber, Ir and Heremon, and from Ith, King Milesius' uncle, are said to descend the great clans and families of Ireland, known as "Milesians," in honor of their great ancestor, King Milesius of Spain.
After conquering the island Heber and Heremon divided Ireland between them. To Heremon went the northern half of the island and there his descendants are mainly to be found to this day, including the northern and southern Ui Neill, King of Meath and Ulster, the Ulaid, the Dal Riada (who later founded the kingdom of Scotland) and the Kings of Leinster. From Heber are said to descend the tribes and kings of the south of Ireland. Heremon gave a part of his kingdom to Heber Finn, the son of his slain brother, Ir, and from him are said to descend the Knights of the Red Branch in Ulster, Clanna Rory. From Ith, King MIlesius' uncle, are said to descend some of the tribes living in the province of Connacht.
Notes:
1. Three variants of the Milesian legend are extant in Irish manuscript; The version presented in the preceding pages is a summary of the R1 redaction from the Book of Leinster (Lebor Gabala Erren); published by the Irish Texts Society, 1939. This is actually the less often quoted of the three variants, but is demonstrably the oldest version.
2. The texts which accompany the following Milesian genealogies were taken from Roger O'Ferrall's "Linea Antiqua," circa 1710 (Sir William Betham translation). John O'Hart in his "Irish Pedigrees" also depended heavily on the "Linea Antiqua," but often edited out some of the more racy legends. His genealogy of the McLaughlins of Tirconnell was based on O'Clery's genealogies.
3. The first names in the following pedigree were taken directly from the Old Testament (Book of Genesis), i.e., Adam to Japhet, the son of Noah. The entire pedigree from Japhet to King Milesius of Spain is fictional. King Milesius did not
exist, nor did his sons.
4. According to O'Rahilly (Irish history and Mythology) the true ancestor figure of the northern Gaedil (i.e., line of Heremon) was Tuathal Teachtmar (81). The earliest figure
in the pedigrees most historians and genealogists agree was strictly historical, however, was Nial Naoighiallach (of the Nine Hostages-91).
What appears next on the above site is the very lengthy genealogy of Mil from the first man Adam (The Red Man) cited from Roger O'Ferrall's "Linea Antiqua" ca. 1710 (As it appeared in Sir William Betham's transcription).
So it appears that the "King Melisius" of legend may be just that, a legend. However, it this does not negate the fact that Mil could have been a real person descended from King Tuach of the Tuatha De.
As it stands from some further research, the Book of Leinster, or the Book of Invasions, is basically a creation story of sorts. Though much of it is very pagan, it was written along with other books of legend, such as The Book of the Dun Cow and The Yellow Book of Lecan, by Irish Christian monks between the 12th and 14th centuries, and it is very reasonable to think there was some contamination. From an article at www.lyberty.com/encyc/arti...shmyth.html :
"The oldest of these stories were composed in the pagan Celtic iron age of Ireland, possibly as early as 300 BC, and passed on in the druidic oral tradition until the coming of Christianity and the decay of the druidic priesthood in the 5th century AD. The stories were then passed on by wandering bards, added to and bits lost, until the first scraps were first written down in a highly confused order with odd legal and historical notes on cow-hides by early Irish Christian monks in the 7th century. The oral tradition continued to grow and mutate, monks kept writing them down, and manuscripts were copied and then lost.
"These myths are scattered about in several still extant ancient Irish manuscripts written by Christian monks between the 12th and 14th centuries AD, such as The Book of the Dun Cow (LU), The Book of Leinster (LL) and The Yellow Book of Lecan (YBL). Some were written as late as the 18th century. The original pagan myths therefore suffer from varying degrees of Christian contamination."
"They were first translated into English at the beginning of the twentieth century by Lady Gregory and Miss Eleanor Hull, and their texts have been re-written ever since, until Thomas Kinsella's splendid new translation in 1969."
Though I realize that anything this far back is based on legend and myth, this only peaks my interest all the more. I suppose I find it incredibly fascinating that the memory of Irish ancestry goes so far back as to be inmeshed with the mythological, with legends of people and races far greater and nobler than today. I suppose it is the 18th century romantic in me!
As a final note to this post, to whom it may concern, I do realize that at this point I am largely talking to myself (and Becca). However, until I post this elsewhere on a website of my own making, I suppose it's just as well that it be posted here. I hope someone besides me (and Becca) find it of use. :-D
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Sat, September 11, 2004 - 1:35 PMUpon further research, I have found an interesting connection between the Picts and the Tuatha De. Legend has it that following the invasion of Ireland by the "Milesian" Celts, the Picts came to Ireland desiring to settle. They were turned down and sent back to what was to become Scotland. However, they did not leave empty handed. As it were, the Celtic invaders sent with the Picts the widows of the Tuatha De slain in battle as wives. It stands to reason then that there is an evident intermingling of the heredity of the Picts and the Tuatha De, which may come to bear interestingly in the future of the Pictish race and their mysterious fading into history as the Wee People of Scotland. I find this interesting particularly since the Picts determined kingship matrilinearly rather than patrilinearly. I shall continue looking into this.
"Heremon, seventh son of Milesius, youngest but the third son who left any issue, after the conquest and division of Ireland, as before is set forth, became the first king or monarch then and reigned jointly with his eldest brother, Heber, for one year, at the end whereof a quarrell happening between them occasioned by their ambitious wives, as aforesaid, Heber was slain at the battle of Geishill, after whose death Heremon reigned alone 14 years, in which time a certain colony called by the Irish Cruithin, in English Picts, arrived in Ireland and desired of Heremon to assign them a part of the country to settle in, which he refused; but as regards they had no women along with them, Heremon gave them for wifes the widows of those that were slain in the wars between them and the Tuatha de Danann and sent them with a strong party of his own forces to conquer the country then called Albion (now Scotland)."
members.aol.com/lochlan2/legends.htm -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Sun, September 12, 2004 - 10:31 AMWell, it is apparent that there is indeed truth to the fact that the Picts who approached Heremon for land in Ireland was sent back to Scotland with wives of the widows of the Tuatha De (at least I have corroborated this with several different sources). In light of this, it is interesting that the Picts determined their kingship matrilinearly. It is said that:
"Heremon gave them [the Picts] for wifes the widows of those that were slain in the wars between them [the Milesians] and the Tuatha de Danann and sent them with a strong party of his own forces to conquer the country then called Albion (now Scotland); conditionally that they and their posterity should be tributary to the Monarchs of Ireland." From: members.aol.com/lochlan2/legends.htm
And as posted on RootsWeb on a message board: "Requiring the Cruithni/Picts to calculate their lineage along matriarchal lines, then, ensured that the Irish [Tuatha De] retained claim to their royal line and could rightfully vie for election to kingships within their resulting society at some later date, which they did." From: archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...18743521
It appears that in order to preserve a royal line of the Tuatha De through the Picts, they were given Tuatha De wives and were sent back to Scotland where they ruled. So, the blood of the ancient line of the Tuatha De, who were to become the Daoine Sidhe, mingled with the blood of the aboriginal Picts of northern Scotland, who are theorized to have mysteriously vanished into landscape, though it is often thought that they became a race of the Wee Folk known to all of the British as the pixies.
Finally, there is apparently some precedent for my interest in such things, though it is odd that according to this one source, my interest is quite anachronistic. Apparently: "Until the 13th century, having fairy blood was admired." www.themystica.com/mystica/...ries.html
Thus, it appears that merely by virtue of hailing from ancient Pictish origins, I (and all others sharing my ancestry) also have claim to the bloodline of the Tuatha De. Very cool! Now if only I could uncover some Pictish genealogies ... -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Sun, September 12, 2004 - 8:22 PMRy, I still can't get over all the work you have put into this. I had to copy/paste all into a Word doc and print it out. I will read the last couple entries tonight. Even if no on else appreciates this i DO!. I look forward to reading future messages you post.
Brightest blessings to you Ry,
Becca -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Sun, September 12, 2004 - 9:08 PMAgain, thank you Becca! I hope that the information here will in some way benefit you and yours. All the best to you and thanks for taking the time to read this stuff! :-D
May the roof above us never fall in.
And may the friends gathered below it never fall out.
-- Ry -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Tue, September 21, 2004 - 8:56 PMThank you this is amazing, I have been trying to find info on my family's history both the Albrights (Not sure of proper spelling) and the Cray's. Accurate info on Pre-Christian Ireland/Hibernia is not so easy to find. My Grandfather Jerald Cray used to say he wasn’t Irish he was Black Dutch and came from the old way. My grand mother was the great something’s granddaughter of the queen of Austria in about the 15th century. I have always felt a calling to the old ways of Ireland so I must thank you for the history lesson & all the wonderful links. -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Wed, September 22, 2004 - 3:21 PMNo, Gnome, thank YOU for taking interest. ;-D I think we will find that many more of us share this common ancestry than we think. It just takes time and much effort to uncover. I think many of us would indeed be overjoyed to find that we were cousins to the Good People.
Speaking of which, I do believe that the Cray's are Scottish, likely Dalriata Scots that migrated from Ireland. They are probably of the MacRae clan, Cray being an anglicization of the old surname MacRae. George Black states that MacRae is actually a personal name anglicized from the original Gaelic 'mac rath' (pronouned mack RAEH) meaning 'son of grace'. It possible that your Cray's may hail from different blood, but this looks like a Celtic name to me.
Anyway, all the best to you in discovering your ancestral past! -- Ry -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Fri, September 24, 2004 - 7:01 PMI did see and entry of a war between Scottish McRae’s and the Gunn Clan in an old roomies book on his old family name Gunn. I was not sure if there was a connection but we used to joke about being in a family feud.
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Fri, September 24, 2004 - 7:21 PMMy Grandfather came to America from Ireland with his family when he was a young man, unfortunately he died in 1982 so I cant just ask him about the questions that pop up from memories of the things he used to say and do. I hear the Mormon Church has good genealogy records but don’t know if you have to be one to use it. -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Fri, September 24, 2004 - 9:04 PMI would be willing to put money on your Irish decent. ;-) I am sorry about your grandfather. I know that feeling. My great uncle, the last of my family from older times, passed in 1993. Though I collected some stories from him, his memory was failing at the time, so I cannot be sure of the accuracy of his various anecdotes of our family history.
Regarding the Mormon Church, it is part of their faith to trace their ancestry, and you need NOT be a Mormon to benefit from their extensive research. So take advantage of this great resource! If ANYone even remotely related to you has become a Mormon, then you may have had all the work done for you. ;-D Anyway, best of luck to you! Take care! -- Ry -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Wed, November 17, 2004 - 5:51 PMall of it... WOW!! :-D -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Thu, November 18, 2004 - 12:58 AMI have heard others voice such theories of the connection between pixies and picts, the lost tribe who came from islands in the sky on silver ships, and of how other nordic tribes attempted to hunt them out of existance, but that the interbreeding with neighboring clans is what allowed the genetic traits to not be completely lost to the world.
I have also heard that they continued to shrink in size till they were no longer visible. -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Thu, November 18, 2004 - 5:34 AMRy,
Do you have any info on the last name Dee? this is my great grandmother's--told to me to be Scottish. I have mainly been tracing my french history, Belanger, but now am intriqued to trace the rest.
m -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Fri, November 19, 2004 - 11:31 AMHey there M! In fact, it is Scottish. If memory serves me correctly, it is an shortened form of the patronymic MacDee, one of the many more Gaelic forms of the very common anglicized surname Davidson. I will check my books shortly to verify this and respond with more info. Try googling Clan Davidson and see what you get. You may find the official clan site with a list of the various names under this clan, one of which will likely be Dee. It is also possibly a place name from Deeside in Aberdeenshire. I will get back to you with more on this in a bit ...
Have a very close friend who is a Davidson. Anywho, best of luck to you in your research! I will be back shortly with some more info ...
;-D -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Mon, February 7, 2005 - 9:47 AMAmazing postings. How about the last names of Kibby and Glasgow. The first being my paternal grandmother's maiden name and the second my own mother's maiden name.
Glasgow is Scottish of course. But descended from what, I don't know.
Thanks!
LH
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Sun, January 23, 2005 - 9:49 AMI find your theory very interesting, it would explain alot.
I have scottish/celtic ancenstry, though I cant trace it as specifically as your due to poor record keeping, and also jewish ancestry.
It does seem that I have access to this other realme, the faery realme and it IS in my blood and has been there since being a young child. -
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Mon, January 24, 2005 - 12:35 PMHmm a fascinating theory and it helps relate some but not all to my beliefs. My dad's side is Skeen from Scotland spelled Skene there and my mom is O'Connor from Ireland. This is a good theory for the orgin of human based fae but I have some past life memories of other theorys... I'm not a Christian though I believe in angels and the War in Heaven... Heck i remember the War in Heaven I was an angel... We took one of three stances... We sided with the divinity We sided with Lucifer (not satan he doesn't exist except in the mind of Christians and Muslims off the Arabic word "Shiatan" or "enemy") or we didn;t choose sides at all cause we were either peaceful or oppurtunists... Those of us who chose lucifer or were oppurtunists got cast to Hell (which was created solely to hold them there and can be considered an opposing Universe) and Those of us who didn't choose sides like me were cast to Earth (the material realm) Where we were told to join with the elementals and Faerie court.. And in time the feathers dropped from our wings and our wings became pure auric energy i.e. gossamer wings... But that's just my thoughts -
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Unsu...
Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Mon, July 4, 2005 - 12:17 AMTopher,
You will also find that Skene's are also descended from Robert The Bruce.
A local family here in Australia are the Skene's and they went right back into their family history and found this direct connection. I believe they said that it was most likely vikings in the ancestry but can't be sure.
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Unsu...
Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Thu, February 10, 2005 - 1:26 PMWow - I am also from clan Donnachaidh. I did not know the connection with the Picts. For the past few years I have been studying stone carvings by the Picts. My favorite is the “The Maid of Meigle Pictish Stone" a carving in stone of a mermaid. It is in the Meigle Museum in Perthshire, Scotland. Another good place is the Groam House Museum in Ross-shire, Scotland
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Wed, March 9, 2005 - 11:10 AMthat's really cool, I'm a Robertson, but nobody ever mentioned all this to me!
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Wed, June 15, 2005 - 12:30 PMThis one is from almost a year ago. So I hope ur still out there. I myself just recently traced my roots to find out I also descend from the Picts. In short. My mother's maiden name is McNaughton. Which translates to "sons" of Nechtan. Nechtan was also King of Picts @8th century. Here's where my confusion started. My research broke of into Nechtan the Druid/Celtic God aka The Dadga. Which I'm sure doesn't need explaining...was the leader of the Tuatha De Danann. This blow my mind and maybe I looked at all of this the wrong way so maybe someone can enlighten me other wise. I've done some more searching and found that Pixies are believed to be the Picts. I quess my confusion revolves around weither or not King Nechtan and Nechtan/Dagda are the same. I know how things get twisted in time. But following the story of Nechtan you can see how the two could be the same just told to fit those who tell it. It makes alot of sense to me, at least explaining some of my traits and abilities. My passions in life..are explained simply by being in my blood. My Pictish heritage. If anyone has any insite on this subject please do let me know. I proud of my heritage either way...I just want to be correct in my knowledge.
Thank you..Bright blessings all -
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Unsu...
Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Wed, June 15, 2005 - 2:52 PMNechtan was a Pictish king and a water god. He may have been husband to Boann a goddess of bounty and fertility. Dagda had an affair with Boann. Boann and Dagda made the sun stand still for nine months in order for Aengus to be conceived and born on the same day. This enabled them to hide their relationship from Nechtan.
Elcmar is also mentioned as the husband to Boann
www.irelandinformationguide.com/Th...gda
www.masterliness.com/a/The.Dagda.htm
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Re: a theory of fae ancestry ...
Mon, January 9, 2006 - 12:49 AMryan,
An absolutely fantastic site....I am tracing my heritage and have got to Uchtredus flius Scott (means son of Scot). Born approx. 1100.
I have found reference saying he is related to mil and scota.
Can you advise me where I can go to confirm this etc.
Regards Jo